Curse

fenix · May 13, 2008, 01:49 PM // 13:49

I would enjoy it if Anet decided to go against the views of the PvE community, and decided to do some good PvP changes, while ignoring PvE entirely. That would mean we could finally get the changes we want, without constant whining from players who cannot adapt in PvE. Even better would be if they did some nerfs to remove the really imbalanced skills from PvE.

It's about time they listened to PvPers, splitting it was just the first step.

Antheus · May 13, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

But in PvE, monsters may have more than 400 attribute points, so a skill that would give 20 armor and reduce 100 damage from an enemy attack to 75 damage, may have 40 in PvE and reduce a hit of 400 damage to 200?
In PvE you are not fighting in equal footage. NEVER. Monsters may have more Health, way more energy, more attributes, more skills, Monster skills, and Player just get PvE skills, and keep the same limitations as in PvE.
The only limiations hostile NPCs have in PvE is thir puny AI.

Since the measures are different, it's logical than some figures may perfectly be different.

So why not fix what is broken? Namely the mobs?

This comes from trying to copy Epic Bosses into a game model that doesn't work. In WoW you have such situations.

But in GW, the concept of scaling mobs upwards doesn't work, never has, never will.

It was giving mobs Monster Only skills that was the cause of all these problems. DoA and RoT were greatest blunders ever. Why are suddenly there effects and skills in place that have no counters, that don't fit the game model, and that completely break the gameplay?

Monster Only skills and Environmental Effects were the first wrong. PvE only skills were the second. Unfortunately, two wrongs don't make a right. They create Epic Wrong. Currently, were have Lesser Wrong which is Ursan. Once the split occurs, people will see what happens with lack of balance. Unless you're a title grinder or farmer, you won't find much enjoyment anymore.

Avarre · May 13, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

So why not fix what is broken? Namely the mobs?
...
Monster Only skills and Environmental Effects were the first wrong. PvE only skills were the second. Unfortunately, two wrongs don't make a right.

Dear ArenaNet,

The following idea has been passed around for some time. It is the best idea you can possibly listen to for PvE, out of all the ones coming from Guild Wars Guru.

Can we see changes that make your game good again? Let's be honest, WoW has better PvE and they even have televised PvP competitions now. You've tried to do everything at once on a smaller scale, and in the process end up mediocre at it.

Stop listening to bad suggestions. Stop taking ideas that you think will make you a quick profit. Do something to make your game revolutionary and unique and you'll still be here ten years down the road.

MithranArkanere · May 13, 2008, 02:20 PM // 14:20

They CANNOT change the mobs.
There is a limit of what can be done with AI without making the enemies too hard.
NPC mesmers interrupt 1/4 spells, for Lyssa's sake!

Take the 'best' AI they currently have: The Zaishen guys in the first step of HoH. Are they hard? No. They are quite a joke.

Once you reach the limit of AI, you can only increase power.

Just remember that this is not a change to completely split PvE and PvE, is to be able to make better changes in PvP affecting less PvP.

A skill that may bbe too powerfull in PvP, giving too much armor, may be a joke that no one else would use in PvE. And better than having some skills that people use in PvP ad some skills people use in PvE, is having a lot of skills people use in both sides.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Pointless, blabber.

NO. When I say 'functionality' I'm using Anet's Official term. The term they use in updates.

You could consider 'burning' to use fire skills, but NOT all fire skills burn, neither all burning is made with fire skills, even if they deal fire damage.
That's because "Burning" is an official term that refers to a condition.

A functionality change means that the skins behavior changes, not its numeric values, type or attribute line.

Just check the Glossary of Official terms in the Wiki.

Avarre · May 13, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

A lot of stuff about AI.

You could give mobs full skillbars that actually work, or put them in balanced groups and they become more of a threat. You don't need rebalance for that at all. Their overall firepower goes up, but not to an unbalanced level - they can't pack more than a PvP team could, for example, and their resilience to one-dimensional tactics increases.

Example: Jade Brotherhood. Level 20, more dangerous than most higher level mob groups.

MithranArkanere · May 13, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Nah. That won't do, because big areas are more like 8vs400 than 8vs8.

Making them have more complex builds would just make each are require more precise builds to be able to beat them without single deaths.

That's the main difference between PvP and PvE.

In PvP, two enter, and each one has the same chances to survive.

In PvE, Hostile NPCs are designed to be killed without a single death on our side.

mafia cyborg · May 13, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

for almost any problem u can come up to a good programmer can find a solution.
so far they only bothered to make mobs scatter (and not even succefully) on aoe.
u say npcs interrupt too fast ? u can make them have interrupts times that range from 1/4 to 3/4 (more similar to human reaction times).

mithran u sem to talk a lot but u ever stop to think?
u can make pve mobs with pvp team builds....but with stats as weak as u need them to be . then if u play right u should kill every mod group without any losses on your side.
u seem to see huge problems that have very easy solutions.....which u should be able to think out yourself.

Bryant Again · May 13, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

They listened to *some* people, not "us".

Regarding AI and well-built mobs: As bad and dumb as the AI can be, I think putting builds together in a bit more coherent and intelligent fashion would've been more challenging than just upping the damage and health of monsters. I used to think that the idiocy of the mobs was balanced through how hard they hit and how much health they have - but no matter how big a gun you have, if you don't know how to use it, you won't be able to do jack shit.

Putting together more strict and "better builds" in monsters would put more strain on putting together a very concise and well-balanced build for the area, although a balanced team and good gameplay should be able to triumph over them all. Both of these would be a good challenge.

Kashrlyyk · May 13, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Bigger gap for PvE to PvP and harder for some PvXers,

Irrelevant, because: "Overwhelming majority doesn´t play much PvP." (Quote from CM)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

everything in PvE will be buffed not nerfed...

Rumour.

C2K · May 13, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Nah. That won't do, because big areas are more like 8vs400 than 8vs8, because apparently the casual player doesn't know how to pull a mob.

Making them have more complex builds would just make each are require more precise builds to be able to beat them without single deaths because it might actually make PvE somewhat challenging and not solo farmable.

That's the main difference between PvP and PvE.

In PvP, two teams enter, and the team with the best skill at both creating and using an effective build has the advantage over the other.

In PvE, Hostile NPCs are designed to be killed without a single death on our side, because carebears should be able to farm the survivor title with least amount of skill required.

I would also like to add that if Guild Wars continues to lose its unique gameplay qualities, WoW, AoC, any other big money EQ-blueprinted MMORPG will crush it, regardless if its freeplay or not.

Kashrlyyk · May 13, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Because doing anything to Prot Spirit would destroy a skill that is working as it's intended to work. How is Prot Spirit not working as the description says it should?

It works as intended, but the intended effect is overpowered. In an area without enchantment removal, you can run around with just a headpiece with superior rune and PS. Any damage gets reduced to very easily manageable 40 points.

C2K · May 13, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

It works as intended, but the intended effect is overpowered. In an area without enchantment removal, you can run around with just a headpiece with superior rune and PS. Any damage gets reduced to very easily manageable 40 points.

If mobs were allowed to take enchantment removal, it wouldn't be so overpowered.

Abedeus · May 13, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Hehe. A.Net listens to us?

*cough*Ursannotnerfed*cough*moretitlegrindsafterni ghtfallwoes*cough*3heroesevenifwecanuse6*cough*

Excuse me.

Bryant Again · May 13, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

everything in PvE will be buffed not nerfed...

Rumour.

I think it's less "they'll buff everything" and rather "they'll nerf nothing". Besides for Prot Spirit I see little use in creating such a divide, unless one side is much less capable of handling changes.

Striken7 · May 13, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Anet hasn't listened to anyone by splitting the skills. Doing a split like this was always a bad idea, and is still a bad idea. If Anet did not agree with this, and actually did listen to the (wrong) people asking for this for years, than they would have done it a long time ago.

They reason they are doing it now is because they don't care about the state of Guild Wars anymore. GW is dying and they know it. All they are doing now is using us as a sandbox to test features for GW2.

Phaern Majes · May 13, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I really don't see the downside here, isn't it a win/win? The pvp'ers get all the balances they want, while the pve'ers don't get skills nerfed just because somebody found a way to exploit it in pvp. Does it really mess anything up? Seriously haven't been playing for a month or two, so I'm out of the loop here. Want to know why you all say its a bad idea. Suppose I'll do a search...

Kashrlyyk · May 13, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2K

If mobs were allowed to take enchantment removal, it wouldn't be so overpowered.

Like in PvP? Even there, PS is overpowered and Izzy realized that, too.

I am answering the question of the topic now (at least for me):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

At this point I would want ANet to remove all the Elite energy management skills (or all underpowered/unused skills) from PvP and make them usable in PvE. Then the PvP players can have their balance and PvE players can have their fun.

So yes, they did half listen to me.

Zahr Dalsk · May 13, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Revive the SoJ Spike (Augury of Death, Dancing Daggers, Entangling Asp, Signet of Toxic Shock, Signet of Judgment, Castigation Signet, Resurrection Signet) and give it to PvE enemies in large numbers of assassins. Design their AI to use it and to coordinate spikes.

Watch as they wipe Ursan teams with ease.

Just a random thought.

By the way, PS isn't mandatory to keep PvP balanced. There's lots of stuff you can use instead. I don't even consider it that useful in PvP - I take other stuff that works better - SB and the like.

Dr Strangelove · May 13, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

They listened to *some* people, not "us".

Regarding AI and well-built mobs: As bad and dumb as the AI can be, I think putting builds together in a bit more coherent and intelligent fashion would've been more challenging than just upping the damage and health of monsters. I used to think that the idiocy of the mobs was balanced through how hard they hit and how much health they have - but no matter how big a gun you have, if you don't know how to use it, you won't be able to do jack shit.

Putting together more strict and "better builds" in monsters would put more strain on putting together a very concise and well-balanced build for the area, although a balanced team and good gameplay should be able to triumph over them all. Both of these would be a good challenge.

This is what should be done. Not only does this make PvE more interesting, but also closes the gap between PvE and PvP. They've shown they can create better monster builds, The Jade Brotherhood have already been mentioned, undead mobs come to mind as well, despite a huge, glaring weakness to holy damage. The dwarves in slaver's exile are quite well made, although their dumb AI allows them to be exploited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Irrelevant, because: "Overwhelming majority doesn´t play much PvP." (Quote from CM)

I call bullshit. Almost everyone I know plays PvP to some degree. Very few people play high-end PvP, but that has more to do with a very steep learning curve and painful barriers to new players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Nah. That won't do, because big areas are more like 8vs400 than 8vs8.

Making them have more complex builds would just make each are require more precise builds to be able to beat them without single deaths.

That's the main difference between PvP and PvE.

In PvP, two enter, and each one has the same chances to survive.

In PvE, Hostile NPCs are designed to be killed without a single death on our side.

It works fine if you dish out jumbo morale boosts during and after fights. People go through HA carrying over death penalty from fight to fight, and there are no problems with that.

As for PS, I rarely see it anymore in PvP, most people prefer to run spirit bond. It just makes more sense to run SB when everyone has 600+ health, and nothing hits for over 120 or so.

It is broken in PvE, but double damage hard mode boss eles are equally broken. You can't fix one without fixing the other.

Red Sonya · May 13, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

But in GW, the concept of scaling mobs upwards doesn't work, never has, never will.

Exactly, that's why they've sold over 6 million copies now and headed for 7 million because it doesn't work, never has and never will. lol